A meeting of the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee (PCAC) to the MTA was convened at 12:00 noon on June 7, 2012, in the 5th floor Board room at MTA Headquarters, 347 Madison Avenue, New York City.
The following members were present:
Andrew Albert
Gerard P. Bringmann
David Buchwald
Sheila Carpenter
Mark Epstein
Shirley Genn
Randy Glucksman
Mike Godino
Stuart Goldstein
Ira Greenberg
William K. Guild
Sharon King Hoge
Trudy Mason
Steve Mayo
Maureen Michaels
Bryan Peranzo
Edith Prentiss
Michael Sinansky
Burton M. Strauss Jr.
Toya Williford
Neal Zuckerman
Via Phone:
James F. Blair
The following members were absent:
Richard Cataggio
Francis T. Corcoran
Owen Costello
Christopher Greif
Marisol Halpern
Rhonda Herman
Thomas Jost
Matthew Kessler
Jessica Gonzalez-Rojas
Larry Rubinstein
In addition, the following persons were present:
William A. Henderson – PCAC Executive Director
Jan Wells – PCAC Associate Director
Ellyn Shannon – PCAC Transportation Planner
Karyl Berger – PCAC Research Associate
Alda Chan – MTA IG
Marsha Desormeaux – MTA IG
Sam Schwartz – SSE
Alan Zuffein – NYC Independent Budget Office
George Haikalis – IRUM
C. Karaca – Karma ME
Yvonne Morrow – Concerned citizen
Matt Shotkin – Concerned citizen
Executive Session
A motion was made for the Committee to go into executive session at the opening of the meeting. The meeting proceeded with consideration of the agenda and minutes following the executive session.
Approval of Agenda and Minutes
The agenda for the June 7, 2012 meeting was approved. The minutes of the March 1, 2012 meeting were approved as amended. Maureen Michaels stated that she did not make the remarks attributed to her about federal funding for reduced student fares and the minutes were amended so that this comment is not attributed to a specific individual.
Chair’s Report
The PCAC, LIRRCC, MNRCC and NYCTRC Chairs’ Reports are attached to these minutes.
Ira Greenberg acknowledged Bryan Peranzo and Mike Godino, who have joined the LIRRCC since the last meeting. Mr. Peranzo and Mr. Godino introduced themselves to the other members, and the members in turn gave their names and Council affiliations.
In response to a discussion of issues related to 34th Street bus service, the members considered the problems created by vehicles parking in the bus lane in the 34th Street corridor. Sheila Carpenter stated that she had a terrible experience with 34th Street SBS. One fare payment machine had broken at the busy stop where she boarded the bus, resulting in an exceptionally long line for the remaining machine.
Introduction of Sam Schwartz, founder of Sam Schwartz Engineering (SSE) and a former NYC Traffic Commissioner, to discuss his Equitable Transportation Formula for New York
Mr. Schwartz stated that he had wanted to work for MTA upon leaving the University of Pennsylvania. He said that the MTA was not hiring at the time, so he went to work for the City of New York dealing with traffic. He said that every transportation funding formula that has been proposed has been about taking money from drivers and giving it to transit, but the basic problem is that the current system is broken and unfair. He noted that the current system was originally created through the efforts of NYC Mayor William Jay Gaynor, Robert Moses, and Nelson Rockefeller.
Mr. Schwartz said that over the past several years he has been listening to what people throughout the region are saying about transportation. What he has heard is that there is much anger. He said that there is $670 million in tolls collected in the Bronx, yet transit service is terrible in the places where these funds are collected.
Despite a number of toll increases, additional toll increases continue to be on the horizon, Mr. Schwartz noted. He said that by 2020 at the current rate of increase the round trip toll for a crossing will be $25 and that this situation is unsustainable. He said that if a person knew nothing about New York City, that person would think that Staten Island is the central business district, since drivers have to pay to cross into Staten Island from any direction and there are $580 million in tolls collected annually at the Staten Island crossings.
Yet in Queens, Mr. Schwartz continued, the Queensboro Bridge is free and lies between two tolled crossings to Manhattan. Brooklyn has a similar situation with its East River bridges. He said that Robert Moses built extended highways to lead to river crossings. The pricing policy that evolved is to toll drivers on highways and their connected crossings, but to allow people to drive and cross bodies of water for free where they use the City’s surface streets.
Mr. Schwartz noted that another crazy policy is that we encourage large trucks to leave the area using free East River bridges, crossing Manhattan on Canal Street, and leaving the City through the Holland Tunnel at no charge, rather than using the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge at a cost of up to $70. Of course, the approach to the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge is another problem, as the Belt Parkway allows cars on the highway and forces trucks to use the surface streets.
The East River Bridges were tolled until 1911, Mr. Schwartz noted, pointing out that at the toll rates of ten cents there would have been a collection of $1billion, even before inflation. Because of deferred maintenance, the City had to close the Manhattan Bridge in the past and there were fatalities on the free bridges.
Mr. Schwartz noted that Robert Moses moved cars to the highway and trucks to the streets. He also stated that we cannot continue to exceed the rate of inflation in terms of increases to bridge pricing.
Congestion pricing is successful elsewhere, Mr. Schwartz noted, but it has not been put in place in New York City. It failed in 1973, when an attempt to use it was halted by act of Congress. Mr. Schwartz tried to force oversize vehicles to use the MTA rather than the free bridges in 1980, but this attempt was not successful. The last congestion pricing effort in 2008 did not succeed. During this last attempt, during the New York City Council vote on a Home Rule Message to allow congestion pricing, Council members from every district with a bridge voted in favor of the plan.
Mr. Schwartz said that the idea behind his plan is to wipe the slate clean on tolling. He said that the pricing system should focus on the central business district and should apply market driven pricing principles. When the economy is good tolls would rise, and when the economy is bad tolls would fall. Tolls would be higher where there is congestion and transit options are available.
The Fair Plan would lower tolls by $5.00 per round trip on the Throgs Neck, Whitestone, and Verrazano-Narrows bridges and by $2.00 on the Gil Hodges and Cross Bay Bridges. Mr. Schwartz said that the plan may even eliminate tolls on the last two bridges and that a $5.00 charge each way would be imposed for drivers crossing 60th Street in Manhattan.
Additional fees that would be included in the plan include a taxi surcharge, which would be in effect in Manhattan south of 86th Street. The plan would also end the parking tax rebate that is given to motorists living and parking in Manhattan. There would also be a for-hire vehicle surcharge, and tolls for bicycles. Mr. Schwartz said that he believes that cellphones could be used for bicycle tolling on the East River bridges.
The funding raised through the plan would allow for a reduction of $1 in bus fares in those areas identified as transit deserts. Even with the discounts and expenditures included in the plan, Mr. Schwartz explained, this plan raises $1.4 billion per year, which would allow for the issuance of $12 to 15 billion in bonds, or the proceeds could be used to fund capital expenditures on a pay as you go basis. He said that two thirds of the proceeds of the plan would go to transit capital improvements, but not to normal maintenance or fare reduction with the exception of the discounts in transit deserts, as the public would not support these uses.
The remaining one third of the proceeds would go toward road and highway improvements that would allow for the rationalization of the system. The road system could be improved to allow trucks on the Belt Parkway and bus rapid transit service on the on Long Island Expressway, the Bruckner Expressway, and the Belt Parkway. The proceeds would also be used to build ribbon bridges for bicycles and pedestrians at the Battery in Manhattan, Greenpoint, and Hunters Point.
The floor was opened for questions. Randy Glucksman asked how tolls would be collected from motorists who are not using EZ Pass. Mr. Schwartz responded that as in most cities that have implemented modern tolling systems, a vehicle can be identified and charged either using transponders like EZ Pass or through license plate imaging. He said that there remain some institutional issues to be worked out with charging drivers through license plate imaging.
Trudy Mason wanted to know whether Mr. Schwartz is presenting this plan to the powers in Albany and whether he believes that there is a chance that the plan will be given serious consideration. Mr. Schwartz replied that he believes he will get support from legislators in the outer boroughs and from some suburban legislators. He said that he has not yet not reached out to the “Three men in a Room,” but believes that this proposal can get serious consideration.
Jim Blair said that he believes that how the issue is framed on the expenditure side is critical. He said people believe that fares go into a black hole, but for this plan to succeed, the case for capital spending needs to be made. He also asked whether Mr. Schwartz has a presentation that defines how capital expenditures funded by his plan will be distributed. Mr. Schwartz replied that he did not yet have this presentation prepared and that he needs help in developing a list of projects that could be funded by the plan. Mr. Blair commented that he didn’t believe a specific list was necessary, but something must be done to establish a general agreement on the necessity of capital sending.
Karyl Cafiero asked whether one of the aims of the plan is to reduce vehicle use. Mr. Schwartz responded that it is.
Edith Prentiss asked why the Long Island projects to be funded by the plan cut off after Nassau County. She suggested that the plan include funding for projects in Suffolk County as well. Mr. Schwartz responded that he would love to expand the list of capital projects to Suffolk County. Ms. Prentiss also suggested that there needs to be a discussion about the entire network in the context of the Fair Plan.
Mike Sinansky commented on the ribbon bridges and bicycle facilities that are envisioned under the plan. He asked the construction and maintenance cost of the bridges. Mr. Schwartz replied that the construction cost would be about $250 million each, which is about the same as the High Line. Maintenance costs would be about $25 million per year for all of the bridges.
David Buchwald inquired about the feedback that has been received from legislators and asked what type of reception the plan has received from legislators outside the New York City metropolitan region. Mr. Schwartz said that he has not made the rounds of those legislators, but will do so.
Sharon Hoge inquired about the organizations with which Mr. Schwartz is working. He responded that he has talked with Move NY, ACEC – New York, the Mayor’s office, and labor and construction industry organizations and that he hopes to build a major coalition in support of the plan.
Andrew Albert commented that there is a need to meet with a variety of local officials. Mr. Schwartz replied that he has started this process.
Ms. Mason asked whether Mr. Schwartz has had any discussions with members of Congress. She noted that if elements of this plan have implications for national policy, he should approach these individuals. Mr. Schwartz replied that he had not discussed the plan with federal legislators. He said that it is his feeling that this is more of a State issue, but there is potential that federal funding could be involved in carrying out the plan.
Old Business
No Old Business was discussed.
New Business
Sheila Carpenter stated that she spoke to staff about including epilepsy in the conditions that qualify a rider for reduced fares on the LIRR. She stated that the issue has been discussed at the LIRR Americans with Disabilities Act advisory committee and that she has not heard back from Peter Albert at the LIRR regarding next steps to be taken. Ira Greenberg noted that the MTA could expand the conditions that establish eligibility for reduced fares, and that the MTA should not be able to claim they are prevented from doing so.
Mr. Blair asked Ms. Mason whether she thought that Mr. Schwartz’s thoughts would resonate with Richard Ravitch. Ms. Mason stated that Mr. Ravitch often speaks with Mr. Schwartz and it is currently unclear what he will do publicly with regard to Mr. Schwartz’s plan. She also recommended that PCAC members should attend the upcoming NYCTRC meeting to hear Scott Stringer speak about his transportation plans.
Ms. Carpenter asked whether the PCAC should address the expansion of eligibility for reduced fare at the upcoming fare hearings. Mr. Greenberg suggested that PCAC should decide what circumstances should make people eligible for a reduced fare. He said that looking at what do other transit systems do may be useful. Ms. Carpenter commented that in Suffolk or Nassau having physical limitations that prevent a person from driving establishes eligibility for reduced fares. The condition is certified by the individual’s physician.
Mr. Greenberg suggested that each council discuss Mr. Schwartz’s Fair Plan and that the committee could consider a response at the September PCAC meeting.
Adjournment
The meeting was adjourned at 2:00.
Respectfully submitted,
William Henderson
Executive Director